„ If I play just a two chords configuration for half an hour and yet feel it with all of my being…That’s where I’ve been discovering what the real music is. It’s not about how many chords or notes I play, or how much knowledge I would carry. But how I allow myself to feel because that would be the truth to myself.„

– Estas Tonne

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Transcript of this Episode

REINHARD
Presence is participation in life. And music is the wave to bring you there. My guest today connects it all. The gap between the notes, accessing the silence and the raging groove that can’t be stopped. The deep passion and the contemplation. Meet a unique human being, meet an outstanding musician. 

Hi Estas, it’s so great to have you here. It’s a real honor and a real pleasure.

ESTAS
Thank you so much for this trigger because sometimes the meeting needs to be triggered in the most beautiful way. So I’m quite curious about this meeting and thank you so much.

REINHARD
Me too. So when I listen to your music what really stands out for me is that you are you. I see a man with an open heart but no compromise, just really exploring life. And I would say that’s authenticity.

My first question is: you have a 20 years old musician trying to get on the way…
You know back then when I was young – this was like Woodstock times – we were so proud to be rebels. Like the last thing you want to have is a conformity with others, you wanted to create your own thing. But now I see a lot of people in fear of other people saying something about them.

How would you with your wisdom guide someone? What is your advice for them?

ESTAS
Inevitably there would be opinions. Inevitably this opinions would come from people we love, from strangers. Inevitably there would be reflections and inevitably there would be this silent voice that guides it all. How? Through feeling. Because let’s say if I play something and while this expression is taking place, someone could come and say, “hey, no no no, you need to play that or that…” “Okay, why don’t you go and do that? Because that’s what you feel but that’s not what I feel.” And I have to stay with that feeling.

You know I haven’t played guitar for 10 years. I played it since I was a child so when I re-met guitar it was not based on the knowledge, it was based on a feeling. So I would play one chord or two or three and how the interaction between them would be, would be explored through my feeling with them and my connection through them. So let’s say if I feel to play one or two chords, just these two chords configuration, for half an hour and yet feel it with all of my being…That’s where I’ve been discovering what the real music is. It’s not how many chords I would play or notes or how much knowledge I would carry, or get from internet or from other people, from books, from videos, trying to copy every move of great artists. But how I allow myself to feel because that would be the truth to myself. So opinions they’re never ending. There would be many people saying this or that, play in these keys, try to find something new, or do this or do that. But it’s just a never-ending variation that comes through humans and we need to listen and be true to our own feeling.

REINHARD
So true. I have heard so much of your music but what really got my attention first is the Internal Flight. You being blindfolded. I see this so much in your music. It’s like you are presence and that’s why I started the whole podcast with that. I see this presence coming out of you, that fascinates me. When there’s nothing, there’s so much.

I would actually give to my audience a little experience of it. I would just like to play a bit of the Internal Flight.

Estas Tonne – Internal Flight sounds

REINHARD
Estas, how much of this music is composed and how much is improvised?

ESTAS
I don’t know what actually is composed.

REINHARD
So how do you go about? You sit on stage and… That in itself is a meditation as I always see it. And the first time I saw a video from you was you on a market place with a lot of people around you and you had your incense stick, and you were like going absolutely in this presence. And that’s for the moment I said “Who is that? Wow.”

So when you go, how does it unfold? Would you like to talk about that?

ESTAS
You’re speaking probably about The Golden Dragon Song, right? The Song of the Golden Dragon. Actually when I review the library of time which comes through Estas, let’s say – because I’ve been recording, capturing as much as I can just to study this phenomena of evolution. It’s not about Estas as a person, but also of course, because there is evolution of personality – yet from the beginning has been fascinating for me to capture these flowers that come, these little moments. And then, when they come, I am like scientifically trying to capture this moment just to review it or maybe try to reproduce it. And yet it very rarely happens that I’m trying to take an idea, a sketch as some musicians would call it. But I call them flowers. So it’s like it’s a flower up here so I capture it and I not necessarily have to listen to it for years. But some of them are talking, which means there is still potency, which means there is still energy there.

When I look at the evolution of The Golden Dragon, the way it appeared… it was a slow intro to something that I was playing already fast and crazy on the streets at that time. It was just a slow, very slow kind of Vals that came. And then out of that it became a version that we know already that has 80 something million views. And then what happened after years, it also broke and became something else which we call today Internal Flight.

And then Internal Flight also broke into other pieces and this pieces they break, they transform into something else giving birth to other ideas. And the other ideas are multiplying and moving and generating some other potentials and other ideas. And then people come and say, “when would you play a new song?” And I say, “I don’t play songs, I play variations, I play moves, I play something that belongs to this moment.” Can I repeat that moment? If I listen to that captured moment as a flower, probably I could. Maybe I cannot repeat exactness of it because I don’t even know how to do that. That’s not my expertise. But I would try to enter through the door and see what the mood and presence of today would tell us all, to myself as a person, as a person holding that space and to everyone participating in it. So there would be always something that is kind of known and yet played in various ways every time.

REINHARD
Space, is what you just said and I feel that space is what holds everything. For you, what means space in music or even in meditation, in life? Space, interval or …emptiness.

ESTAS
It’s like the waves of the ocean. I can hear the strong ones that are coming and going, right? And yet if I sit in that union and listen what kind of things are coming, they’ll tell stories. For a writer, they would be a story to tell. For a musician, they would be maybe a variation to express. So out of that silence everything comes.

The Internal Flight came and this just happened as an improvised evening in India. I sat and played for two and a half hours, one track, absolutely sober, there were no psychedelics involved. There was nothing in that space where I had to trigger that experience. I was at present. So it appeared and showed me something else what is possible. Everything that I’d played until that moment, were like short stories also improvised. Improvised in length, in time and dynamic. And then when that phenomena occurred, music could not be played anymore because I would not feel true to it. If I would arrive to certain places people would say, “Can you play The Golden Dragon for us?” I mean, “I played three hours right now of The Golden Dragon.” But it became something else. What happened in that state and in that space it’s like…it’s like nothing else mattered but that moment. If I would say it in simple words. Without any spiritual connotation without kind of like using sort of terminology. Just in a simple language. Nothing else mattered in that moment.

REINHARD
That’s a beautiful word. Nothing else matters. I mean if you reach that moment…That is what life right now is about. Look, we are in this post-covid or in-covid and so many people go for the fear and for that, and look around… and I wish that more and more wake up to “nothing else matters” and they go for their life fully and have that experience of “nothing else matters.”

ESTAS
But we know that in there is a paradox of it. Nothing else matters, like nothing matters really from the perspective of the worry or knowing, or structure, or construction. And yet at the same time, everything matters.

REINHARD
Everything matters. Yes, of course, the “nothing matters” is the key to everything matters.

The second thing that really struck me in your music is the groove. There’s like a wall coming and it’s really really unstoppable. For that, if you allow, I want to play a little bit of The Essence.

Essence by Estas Tonne sounds

REINHARD
Now what I feel in this groove is no fear, the absence of fear. And it touches me. It’s like going and going.
Right now I feel we are on a very very pivotal point in the human evolution. Where do you think we are going from here?

ESTAS
Where we would love to. It depends where all of us would love to go. The thing is that what you perceive through that sound might be of a different perception for someone else, because The Essence is just the title. It’s like when the breeze or the wind comes, are we given its titles and names. Well some of us have these tools. Some scientists would name this particular breeze or that particular breeze, or this kind of name for this animal, or that tree or this stuff and that. That’s part of the human mind that titles everything, organizes everything, puts everything into folders trying to organize it, so it can be controlled in a way. Yet when the essence appears, when the breeze appears, if it’s naturally created and not by the fan, it comes for a certain natural purpose, to shake things up, to change the setting. It’s nature. That’s why we have storms, because it comes to purify something. All the creatures are coming after happily rejoicing. They find other potentials for feeding themselves and so on and so on.

So if we can’t recognize how much in all of this global story is made up and how much in it is also a requirement for a natural change…If we want to control it and want to go back into something that was before, this is not possible. This is where the suffering is there. This is where self-pity is there. This is where wrestling with everyone around is there. That’s why we see divisions in the families, in the nations even more, even though it’s always been there. The sooner humanity will see that there are natural forces that we are not controlling them, that we are part of it, we are here to dance with them, they are not separate from us, we are not separate from them….The sooner this reunion happens, the less maybe we will suffer and see consequences of our suffering. So it’s up to all of us.

REINHARD
I completely see it like this. If we don’t wake up, no one else will come and do it for us. It’s awakening.
I was thinking… have you ever considered or contemplated playing your music with an orchestra?

ESTAS
Yes.

REINHARD
Yes? Have you ever done it?

ESTAS
I re-started to play guitar in New York. I arrived there one week after September 11. At that moment I didn’t touch an instrument. So probably being in New York at that time for one year and receiving a guitar as a present to reconnect with it, to explore it and first of all, explore myself, it’s taken me on the trip which I’m on still. And it’s ongoing and changing all the time. And then after one year and a half of playing every connection with the guitar I went to a Vipassana Meditation Retreat. And actually being there for the first time sitting 10 days in silence… Maybe not everyone is aware of this technique. It’s a teaching of Buddha about basically reconnection but yet a silent space where we can observe the phenomena of breath and our sensations that are going through the body, so we can actually recognize them. And there is more to it of course, but just in a few simple words… So, sitting there for these 10 days, I had the stream of creativity that was just unbelievable, unstoppable. I couldn’t even express through sound what I heard those 10 days. And because I made the vow not to write, not to play, not to record, not to talk, I just kept on watching that ocean of possibilities, of potentials coming through. And what I’ve heard there was the orchestra. I couldn’t play the way I’m playing today. But of course, I’m very humbly relating to this thing because I never try to be something in it. I’m just a kid who’s exploring myself, and the sound, and the strings, and this feelings…

REINHARD
That makes you so strong.

ESTAS
That orchestra that I could hear at that time probably did influence everything I’m doing today. Because the explosions and the expressions when ET is on stage, they are of that quality of the orchestra. The only problem that I have is that I cannot play that same way every time, every single time, and it wouldn’t be interesting to me also. So if a potential could be created that a structure such as an orchestra can meet improvisation, this is something I would love to to explore very much.

REINHARD
I get a real strong idea. I would love to do that with you because I compose a lot for orchestra and that’s a very beautiful challenge: how to bring these worlds together. So the orchestra has a different role because it needs to react on what you’re doing.

ESTAS
When I gather with the cosmic family – the people whom I have a heart connection, in a simple language I would say – there is an instant recognition of a path that all of us are on. The path that is beyond me, the path that is beyond the “I want it for myself”, you know. This is the path of like, “Hey we’re here for some great incredible experience! All of us are here. We are here to serve this experience through all our talents.” So when we are getting on stage with this quality of recognition, it’s a little bit more difficult to bring it all together because there would be two three musicians. I never do rehearsals, we never rehearse. We just go on stage. We have that connection, we trust that connections we get on stage and we live life together in that moment. But it’s more difficult when it’s more than just Estas is going there solo. Whatever that wind takes Estas, it’s fine. But with other presence we have to consider also and listen, really listen to what’s happening in that space. So normally the way I do it is: imagine yourself a temple without walls. It has no walls. It has strong poles that holds it right like we would see in Greece, in the greek temples. It would have the strong foundation and the poles that would hold the structure together and yet there would be space for the wind to come through.

REINHARD
That’s a beautiful picture actually. And you do have an incredible family that I also saw on the videos, like Pepe Danza, right?

ESTAS
Yeah, there’re so many.

REINHARD
Actually I would love to play a piece of the Sound and Silence Project. Is it an ongoing project?

ESTAS
There was a three-day gathering and then they’ve done it for a seven-day gathering. It was a meeting of various musicians. So the idea was that we are in a mutual stage place. It was not a festival where many things are happening simultaneously. Actually from my observation for recent years, and as well as talking to many brothers and sisters about that, this phenomenon of festivals were so much is going on all over the place is really not the way we would love to continue. It’s one stage concentrated. All the presence, all of us are there. This is the place, this is the worship, this is the parade, this is the service, this is the transcendence. It’s a one-stage place where we play all together. It’s moving, it’s changing. Musicians coming in, musicians coming out, different new configurations appearing. In that festival Netanel Goldberg just sat next to us and they had no idea what to expect. And it was a three-hour jam after that. So things like this in such a space allows various artists of many kinds to meet. And I call all of us artists, which all have many things to share here. So this was the playground and it’s just one of these places that I’ve seen that’s possible.

REINHARD
What touched me very deep also is how the kids stand in the end and there was so much love. Actually the world how I would like to see it. Let’s listen to that.

Sound and Silence Experience by Estas Tonne & Friends sounds

REINHARD
Pepe Danza is from Uruguay, right?

ESTAS
Right

REINHARD
But did you meet him in Israel?

ESTAS
No, I met him in a festival which also had actually a very similar viewpoint on how to create a festival. It was a gathering in Baltic, I think they called it at the time “Baltic Spirit Gathering”. And it also had this concept of one stage where everything is going on. One thing after another. Not millions of things all over the place that people’s brain is getting on fire.

So that’s the place where we met and well, we’ve shared many journeys together. That was right away like “oh, we’re on the trip here together.” But we’re flying like this. Sometimes we’re together, sometimes we separate. But we are here.

REINARD
But you live in Israel, right?

ESTAS
No. I don’t live in Israel since that time 9/11. That’s when I left.

REINHARD
Oh and then you went to New York.

ESTAS
I went to New York and then I went to Mexico where I am actually right now. And then I went to all over Europe and I lived in many places: France, England, Ireland, Germany, Austria, India, Mexico.

REINHARD
The troubadour.

ESTAS
Austria and Germany had actually been kind of my base for the last five, six years.

REINHARD
So now you have a home in Vienna. I really hope you come here and we could play here.

ESTAS
I would love it very much, thank you.

REINHARD
So you’re on tour in Mexico now…

ESTAS
I’m kind of always on tour. But when I’m not on tour I’m taking my time. I spent this almost two years from May 2019 until recently in Austria actually, in a little place near Graz. I needed the time to stay silent, to review, to be quiet, not to be exposed, not to go and actually be available so much. My telephone was off pretty much all the time. When I felt the breeze, that was the breeze in Mexico. So I came here. This is not the time of tours, we postponed everything. Everything that we had lined up for this next Autumn 2020, it was moved to 2021. Now it’s all going to be moved to 2022 and yet it allows for a new potential to come. This is what I was saying earlier, that we need to be in that spontaneous kind of allowance… Not the way things we think supposed to be but the way things are and then dance with it. It’s like in the older days when I would go to India I performed a lot with clowns. With this performers who were improvisers and they were just having fun. I enjoyed so much to create with them because it was always spontaneous. I would just kind of play the soundtrack of that moment and they would do all kinds of things. So if they wouldn’t have the juggling balls and we would just be part of this restaurant scene spontaneously doing things – we were not intended to perform, we were just there and waiting for the food – then they wouldn’t have the juggling ball so what they would do…? They started to take people’s shoes and juggle with that and create that momentum. So that’s what I said, “We don’t have tours, okay let’s see what a new chapter presents to us. What can we do, how creative we could be, what new potentials are here?”

I came to Mexico because there is a lot of family here and then things started to happen. And there were beautiful journeys already going on. Sound Journeys.

REINHARD
Yes, and I found out that we both have one country that we both love and this is Cuba. I have been in Cuba the first time in 1976. And I brought you a little sounds catch from there for this moment. Carnival 1976, Santiago de Cuba.

Music of Carnival 1976 in Cuba sounds. Recorded by R. Flatischler.

ESTAS
Is it just a street recording?

REINHARD
Yes! I had just a little recorder with me. This was the moment where everything in my percussion changed. This was 14 days going on day and night. You really lose all control in the best possible way and just surrender to the groove and surrender to play more and more and more. First you just take a bell….that’s all they will give you.

It has really changed my playing very profoundly and Brazil also has changed my playing so much. Carnival in Olinda, like the Maracatú and then in Bahia. I was lucky to have seen this old carnivals before the “trio eléctrico“ stuff. 

And so you’ve been in Cuba and made this beautiful footage there. What did you get from this treasure trove of Cuban Music? What did you learn?

ESTAS
I mean, when I was a kid the guitar teacher that I had at that time, he introduced me to the song it’s called Cuban Dance. Many students of guitar playing studied this piece. It’s like a little piece that is composed by anonymous artist…we don’t know who actually. It was never in the notation who actually did that. But I guess it’s just like a compilation of few gooves which were taking from the original source of it, right from the Cuban source of it. I didn’t know who actually created that. I connected with it but also along with many other dances of the world because when I was a kid, my teacher, the childhood guitar teacher, he basically introduced me to various cultures through sound. So there were Arabic Dance, Spanish Dance, Argentinian Dance, Brazilian Dance, the Cuban Dance, the Jewish Dance, Tango, they were like Valses…So that is already my setting for the world to go in. And when I didn’t play for 10 years, what I did listen from 15 to 26 – I didn’t play music, so what I was doing at the time was listening – every time I would hear these rhythms it would do something with me. At that time actually I came first time to New York, for the Millennium just for short visit. I’ve seen Tito Puente play in the Blue Note and at the time I thought like, “It’s okay, I come next time and I will see him.” And he was gone within this time I was gone, I had left New York. And that’s when I said to myself, “never, never this will happen again.” When I came back to New York, Celia Cruz was performing and I went there for that performance and I’ve seen her life on stage. There were so many people soaked wet under the rain. Nobody would leave because it was the moment to take that momentum in. So all these Cuban grooves were really present in my life and apart from the grooves and the romanticism which we would think of Cuba, yet there is a deep deep deep story there that we all know, this whole Communism story that’d been influenced in the island for a long time, and the slavery, and the slave trade, and all of it which influenced all of that music big time, of course.

So, me born as a child of Soviet Union wanted to see combination of flavors and how would I feel going to the place that still had carried that memory which I have from being a kid in the Soviet Union.

Geri Dagys is the filmmaker and he’s beautiful woman… the three of us went to the island with no idea what’s going to happen. We had no connections. We just arrived, somebody connected us with Rolando, the percussionist who used to play with the Afro-Cuban All-Stars. As a young musician they brought him in to play the congas. He was our bridge. So he brought all these musicians and we basically didn’t want to go into some hotel to play or some venue. We wanted to have a real barrio, La Habana, barrio experience. So he invited these musicians and we had a jam on the balcony where people, local people, could come and experience that moment. And that’s exactly what we wanted to have from an experience, this absolute sensitivity to the sound from this local people which was absolutely fascinating.They had no idea what I was going to play. So we just set up, I started to go into the little train moment with this groove and they were right there. Absolutely right there. And we had the trip for hour 40 minutes, maybe two hours jam ahead. And out of the jam we captured that sound which of course we had to work on in the studio. We did quite a crazy production with that. That was a crazy production. But that moment was exactly why we went to Cuba because we wanted to have non tourist Cuba experience, but the local. We went to Trinidad, stayed with the local family, we went to Viñales… The only place that I missed that time because of this production that happened naturally, spontaneously… is Santiago. I still feel like the Cuban experience is not complete yet. Because Santiago needed time and we already had no time anymore. We went there for one month. So I feel like this chapter is still open.

REINHARD
I’m sure that all our listeners are very curious to know how that Estas Tonne in Cuba would sound. Let’s listen to that.

Estas Tonne – Cuban Heart Sounds

Beautiful.
Are you still doing your Yoga practice?

ESTAS
I do. Not as much as I would love to because I find many reasons not to. And I’m okay with that too.

REINHARD
Of course, yeah.

ESTAS
But I feel like it’s not always been like this also. It’s not always been that I was okay with the body imperfection and changes. I wanted to change it, I wanted it to be good, I wanted to be perfect. And then it’s not. And there is a bit like “oh there is a little squeaky thing on the right side over there or there is a little bit…” and then I stretch, of course I do. Of course my main Yoga is the guitar playing. It’s my main Yoga. Everything else is a beautiful addition but body is essential for that plane to happen as well.

REINHARD
For every musician I would say. It’s the main instrument.

ESTAS
For every human being that’s the main instrument.

REINHARD
Wow it’s so great to talk to you and I feel so much similarity in what I feel and what I hear in your music it’s fascinating really.
Now, you have also one collaboration with Reka Fodor, Hungarian name, right? How did you meet her? Is she a Flamenco Gypsy?

ESTAS
No she’s not. She learned a little bit. She’s been in Spain performing on the streets also, a little bit spending time with the Gitanos. But she has her own kind of Transylvanian flavor. It’s very deep it’s very old. Because when she starts to sing with that voice the essence of that land is absolutely incredible.

I met her in Hungary on a festival. Somebody came, her friend actually, and said to me and – he was partially organizing the festival –  he said “I think you need to meet someone.” “Sure of course.” And she’s a percussionist, she’s also a singer and a dancer. I went, we had like a little jam of stage, off of sound, just acoustically. I saw right away there is a connection. We both felt that of course. Next day I had a main concert on stage, quite a big in that setting. It was about a few thousand people and it was a main stage so it was the main event of that smaller festival. Basically I said to her, “you get in with me on stage” and they had no problem, anything. But there was this absolute trust “we can go together anywhere from this moment.” So we got on stage and in that moment when the speed was on and the dynamic was really high, we go full on speed and she’s fully there, the electricity falls. The generator falls and there is no sound on stage there, is no sound off stage. We only have acoustic sound of the cajón and a little bit of her mic was still on somehow. But all my pedal sound, all the guitar signal was gone and she kind of looked at me and I said “we just keep going.” And we kept on going for I don’t know how many minutes. This was ongoing trip for us so no matter what happens there. We have no balls, right? With no juggling balls we juggle this with shoes, right? That’s the same thing. So what we do? We continue and the electrician I mean electricians and the sound engineers they were running around all over the stage trying to figure what what happened, how to fix that. We just continued and of course the people were watching that scenery not fully understanding what’s going on because the musicians are playing. And then at some point the electricity turned back. I had some pedals so it created a bit of electronic glitch but we just continue and then of course the crowd got fully euphoric and that was absolutely amazing moment. And then since that moment we just kept going. We met in many different settings and recordings also, and spontaneous moments.

REINHARD
Your meeting blew the electricity I guess!

I was always fascinated from Russia and from also Hungary. Tell me a bit about that spirit because you come from there, the deep old spirit.

ESTAS
I mean I come also from the old Jewish spirit. My ancestors they were living in various parts of the world including Ukraine, where I was born, Soviet Union, and then also Russia. And also Baltic and also Germany. This is at least what I’ve discovered. It goes on and on and on but growing up in Soviet Union for me, actually as a last generation of Soviet Union, it was incredible time. It was fascinating. Everything was opening up, at least what I’ve heard from other people. But for me growing up as a kid in the end of 80s, when things have changed, which I didn’t know how they were before…But for us kids, growing up on the trees, on the food trees, playing football all day long, exchanging, playing with the sticks, exploring life in that sense and communionship and streets exchanges with no iPhones and no technology as we have today, there was a different kind of development.

And of course the music which definitely was present in a sense of not just the music of the Strada, what we’ve known from the tv, but the music that was underground. And the underground music was the the songs from jail. The stories that people were telling through their songs. And that actually was my library that I was listening to. I didn’t grow up listening to Rock or Pop or Latin music. I listen to Gypsy music like Romani music from Soviet, from Russia, from that land. And I listened to those old jail songs because there was some humanity in those lyrics. There was everything there. There was humor and there was pain, and there was some storytelling and that’s how I grew up. So that’s my influence, I would say, that I’ve had. And of course the Romani sound.

And what we think of Romani sound is the collection of many many cultures. Because that’s what Romani sound is. It is the nomadic lifestyle that were picking up from every culture the tribe would go through. And then in that soup of various writings and sounds and experiences, life experiences mainly, it would come out into what we know as a Romani song. Because that’s what happened. When I didn’t play ten years, I’ve heard Django Reinhardt. And I’ve heard Django Reinhardt playing that more of a Roman essence rather than jazz and it took me home. I know that…It took me home.

REINHARD
It sounds like your young age was quite intense. Like you listened to jail songs. What I feel is today everything is so easy or has been kind of so easy on facebook and instagram and all of that. And is it that we as humans need the challenge to grow? The challenge that’s physical, that’s mental that’s emotional?

ESTAS
When you hear some really strong, fascinating written and you say “Wow I can play that.” And you get into it and then you see actually you cannot. Then you say “okay let me go with it, okay let me go, okay let me go with it…yeah I can do that, yeah I can, yeah yeah, I’m improving.” So, is there a challenge there?

REINHARD
That’s what I mean. Exactly

ESTAS
If everything will be fluffy and easy and comforted, where is the growth? That’s what I see very often in Europe, in European countries. Everything is like a Disneyland. There is no space anymore for new things. Everything in its own place. You come to other parts of the world and there is still potential, still potential for something. And I’m sure there is still potential in Europe as well if we allow, if humanity allows that.

REINHARD
I hope! We are in a very dire situation here I guess because it’s getting authoritarian, it’s getting… they’re still coming out of this easy easy going and maybe what’s coming now is challenging people and brings them to a new approach to life.

ESTAS
Right, hopefully. And there are many of those that just don’t want to be going to that restaurant that sells food that we don’t want to eat.

REINHARD
It’s so great to talk to you Estas. I have waited to meet. Because I have met you through your music.

Music from Space Beyond Space by Reinhard Flatischler sounds in the background

Thank you so much for your time my dear. I really hope we meet soon in person and God willing we’ll do something together. Thank you so much for being there for our audience.

ESTAS
Thank you so much for the space. So we’re talking about what Space is. It’s maybe to meet ourselves?

REINHARD
I mean this is called Space Beyond Space (referring to the background music) and I had a lot of contemplation about what space is. And we came up with a Latin phrase that’s called “Ubi nihil – ibi omnia“ which means “Where there’s nothing, there’s everything.” In the gaps you know, in between. And that’s what I actually hear in your music.

ESTAS
When I said just meeting the self, the self is actually all of it. It’s not just the self as many people will think the self. What is the self? It’s a personality, is it a person, is it me, is it the stars? And yet there is so much more to that what comes true.

REINHARD
It’s beyond all of that.

ESTAS
Thank you so much for this meeting. It meant actually a lot for me today. Thank you. And hopefully it will be continued.

REINHARD
Yes! All the best